Comments on: Cool Christians on campus

By: Laura

Laura — Thu, 04 Dec 2003 22:42:28 +0000

Gosh, maybe Julius Caesar doesn’t exist. Wow. My mind is so open now.

By: Steve LaBonne

Steve LaBonne — Thu, 04 Dec 2003 12:14:00 +0000

Laura, how naive. How do you know it’s contemporary? There’s not a scrap of actual, physical writing remaining from Caesar’s time- the texts we have that mention him are known from copies made long after his time (and which stand at the end of a long chain of earlier copies, now lost.) Actually, the evidence for how, say, cats evolved is far *more* massive and compelling than the evidence for Caesar’s existence. It’s irritating, to say the least (and this needs to be said regardless of whether Bill Leonard likes it- he needn’t, of course, read any of it)to see it airily dismissed by people who have taken the trouble to understand none of it. And once again, this kind of intellectual irresponsibility occurs only in matters where people bring to the subject minds already blocked by emotionally charged beliefs. It’s useful to have Laura demonstrate the dangers of approaching scientific evidence with such preconceptions.

By: Bill Leonard

Bill Leonard — Thu, 04 Dec 2003 06:04:58 +0000

Jeff, your last paragraph pretty much says it for this thread. From the heat (but little light) generated by what I’ve read here so far, I also suspect many of you need to get a life somewhere beyond the Internet.

By: Nick Blesch

Nick Blesch — Thu, 04 Dec 2003 04:35:13 +0000

Laura: Asking questions is real science, indeed. Assuming you have the answers - which many supporters on both sides of the ID/Darwinism fence do - is faith, at least in this case. I’m always open to new data, but based on the data available, I don’t see any point in worrying about it because there’s no way I can know. The question is one that I am simply incapable of answering, thus I don’t feel too obligated to look into it.

Also: Even real scientists can be religious - but they’re the type of people who build their faith by asking questions, not by blindly accepting what someone else tells them.

Jeff: No clue how this happened, heh. I agree with your analysis of the original argument, though.

By: jeff wright

jeff wright — Thu, 04 Dec 2003 03:13:25 +0000

Hey, how did you folks get into theology and Darwinism? The subject was evangelical groups on campus, if anyone remembers that. Seems to me that such a discussion should center on issues such as what college kids do in their free time and the First Amendment. I’d like to put my two-cent’s worth in, whilst avoiding cosmology, theology and Darwinism, all of which encompass unproven theories—which may well be unprovable—no matter how much you all want to beat the horse.

These kids are mirroring trends in the greater society. Americans are the most religious people in the western world and the faction that’s growing the fastest is the evangelical movement. So it’s no surprise that the movement is growing on campuses, where what’s new and trendy is usually valued more highly than in other segments of society. The evangelicals are wise to be leery about the odds of many kids making a long-term commitment; history says many will fall by the wayside. It’s also no surprise more kids are embracing religion now: they’re at the time in their lives where they’re searching for answers and religion offers an awful lot of comfort to an awful lot of people.

First Amendment. They have an absolute right to practice any kind of religion they want—so long as no human sacrifices are involved—and to proselytize as well. Who cares? If you don’t wish to associate with those who wear religion on their sleeves, don’t. It’s as simple as that.

Those of you who try to convince believers that there’s no rational basis for belief in a higher being are just wasting bandwith. It doesn’t work. OTOH, there are many recorded instances of non-believers going over to the other side. The rational, science-based non-believers should also consider that there are a number of Nobel Prize winners in the sciences who do believe in a higher being.

If you want religion, go for it. If you don’t, likewise. But in my experience, there are few activities less rewarding than arguing about it. We’ll all find out someday. Or not.

By: Laura

Laura — Thu, 04 Dec 2003 01:40:36 +0000

Steve, there is contemporary historical documentation as to Julius Caesar’s existence. There was no one taking notes when the first cat came about. That’s really all I said. I’m wondering who has the emotional commitment here.

By: Steve LaBonne

Steve LaBonne — Thu, 04 Dec 2003 00:42:07 +0000

Darn, did it again; “of allowing it to be infiltrated by such prior commitments.”

By: Steve LaBonne

Steve LaBonne — Thu, 04 Dec 2003 00:41:14 +0000

I suppose nobody really knows that Julius Caesar existed because nobody now alive was living in his time? Really now, Laura, you can do better than that, can’t you? This is a perfect example of how an emotional commitment to unquestioned beliefs can cause the thinking of an obviously intelligent person to go off the rails, in a way that would not happen with less emotionally charged subjects. And it illustrates the danger to science of allowing it to be

By: Laura

Laura — Thu, 04 Dec 2003 00:30:42 +0000

“Real scientists only consider true things that have been proven as such, and further, they are willing to change their beliefs in a heartbeat if something once true is proven false.” Exactly. Also, I think real scientists feel compelled to speculate about what-ifs. I think one would have to be a poor scientist to be afraid of even contemplating a theory because it seemed to be tinged with religious overtones. I could speculate about intelligent design, (and speculation is all it could be,) and I’d expect to be able to do so without a real scientist telling me I was an idiot to do it. Actually, what happened, happened, regardless of what any of us think. I’d like to know the truth, whatever it is. I think that’s really the scientific approach.

As I told my daughter when she was seven years old and asked me, “Where did the first cat come from, not lions and tigers, but kittycats like ours, where did the first one come from, huh, Mommy?” following a brief explanation of natural selection and my own ideas, and the fact that no one really knows because no one was there to see it, “When you get to heaven you can ask God and he will explain it all.” (I actually have a list of questions for that day.)

By: Steve LaBonne

Steve LaBonne — Thu, 04 Dec 2003 00:11:19 +0000

Hit the button when I didn’t mean too due to my crappy browser! The garbled sentence should read “Funny how ID types are willing to invite THAT nexus of organized complexity to a free lunch.”