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	<title>Comments on: Restricted</title>
	<atom:link href="http://joannejacobs.com/2004/07/31/restricted/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2004/07/31/restricted/</link>
	<description>Free-linking and thinking on education by Joanne Jacobs</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2008 17:30:28 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: jj</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2004/07/31/restricted/#comment-16851</link>
		<dc:creator>jj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Aug 2004 03:23:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobsblog.com/2004/07/31/restricted/#comment-16851</guid>
		<description>Years ago I was part of a debate on affirmative action and was the only Asian/Oriental in a group on stage of about 5 or 6 profs and bureaucrats, with an audience of about 85% white and 15% Afro-Am.  At one point the guy with the pro aff. action point of view stood up and said, that I just didn't understand what it feels like to be in the minority.

I raised my eyebrows, smiled, and said, Look around you.  I seem to be the only one on this podium who isn't white, wasn't born in the USA, and wasn't in favor of affirmative discrimination.

But I know, I know. Asians aren't "minorities" unless it suits the Left.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Years ago I was part of a debate on affirmative action and was the only Asian/Oriental in a group on stage of about 5 or 6 profs and bureaucrats, with an audience of about 85% white and 15% Afro-Am.  At one point the guy with the pro aff. action point of view stood up and said, that I just didn&#8217;t understand what it feels like to be in the minority.</p>
<p>I raised my eyebrows, smiled, and said, Look around you.  I seem to be the only one on this podium who isn&#8217;t white, wasn&#8217;t born in the USA, and wasn&#8217;t in favor of affirmative discrimination.</p>
<p>But I know, I know. Asians aren&#8217;t &#8220;minorities&#8221; unless it suits the Left.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Leonard</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2004/07/31/restricted/#comment-16850</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Leonard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Aug 2004 21:10:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobsblog.com/2004/07/31/restricted/#comment-16850</guid>
		<description>Has anybody asked whether any of this "diversity" for its own sake really means much of anything to anyone, particularly in situations where the real lack of diversity is not in ethnicities, or the "under-represtented," but in a total lack of diversity of opinion?

Beyond that, I would concede that the first or second black in an all-WASP workplace might have new perspectives to offer, should he/she be so inclined, but the 200th? And exactly what is "minority" or "underrepresented" biology, or engineering, or physics?

Methinks it's often not just the king who has no clothes, but the whole court.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Has anybody asked whether any of this &#8220;diversity&#8221; for its own sake really means much of anything to anyone, particularly in situations where the real lack of diversity is not in ethnicities, or the &#8220;under-represtented,&#8221; but in a total lack of diversity of opinion?</p>
<p>Beyond that, I would concede that the first or second black in an all-WASP workplace might have new perspectives to offer, should he/she be so inclined, but the 200th? And exactly what is &#8220;minority&#8221; or &#8220;underrepresented&#8221; biology, or engineering, or physics?</p>
<p>Methinks it&#8217;s often not just the king who has no clothes, but the whole court.</p>
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		<title>By: Cousin Dave</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2004/07/31/restricted/#comment-16849</link>
		<dc:creator>Cousin Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Aug 2004 19:20:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobsblog.com/2004/07/31/restricted/#comment-16849</guid>
		<description>Name three, Richard.  George Wallace, Lester Maddox, and J.B. Stoner (to name a few) were Democrats to the end.  In the South in the '60s, Republicans were considered Northern elitists and the Republican Party was a non-factor in Southern politics.  

On the other hand, we have one former KKK officer in the Senate, and he's a Democrat, and the liberal press has nothing to say about it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Name three, Richard.  George Wallace, Lester Maddox, and J.B. Stoner (to name a few) were Democrats to the end.  In the South in the &#8217;60s, Republicans were considered Northern elitists and the Republican Party was a non-factor in Southern politics.  </p>
<p>On the other hand, we have one former KKK officer in the Senate, and he&#8217;s a Democrat, and the liberal press has nothing to say about it.</p>
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		<title>By: allen</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2004/07/31/restricted/#comment-16848</link>
		<dc:creator>allen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Aug 2004 15:16:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobsblog.com/2004/07/31/restricted/#comment-16848</guid>
		<description>Richard Brandshaft wrote:

&lt;i&gt; Eventually, high profile segregationists turned Republican.&lt;/i&gt;

Got any names? The only "high profile" segregationists still in the political game are in the Democratic Party.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard Brandshaft wrote:</p>
<p><i> Eventually, high profile segregationists turned Republican.</i></p>
<p>Got any names? The only &#8220;high profile&#8221; segregationists still in the political game are in the Democratic Party.</p>
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		<title>By: .</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2004/07/31/restricted/#comment-16847</link>
		<dc:creator>.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Aug 2004 15:04:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobsblog.com/2004/07/31/restricted/#comment-16847</guid>
		<description>An interesting observation spurred by the comment that students don't want to feel they are a spokesman for their PC group:
The very existence of this phenomenon suggests that racial preferences are not only indirectly, but directly fomenting single-mindedness amongst minority groups to align their opinions with the "correct" or expected political stance. It strikes me as particularly devious how this manages to keep nonrepresentative race/group spokesmen like Jessie Jackson/NOW in political power.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An interesting observation spurred by the comment that students don&#8217;t want to feel they are a spokesman for their PC group:<br />
The very existence of this phenomenon suggests that racial preferences are not only indirectly, but directly fomenting single-mindedness amongst minority groups to align their opinions with the &#8220;correct&#8221; or expected political stance. It strikes me as particularly devious how this manages to keep nonrepresentative race/group spokesmen like Jessie Jackson/NOW in political power.</p>
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		<title>By: Fleming</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2004/07/31/restricted/#comment-16846</link>
		<dc:creator>Fleming</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Aug 2004 14:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobsblog.com/2004/07/31/restricted/#comment-16846</guid>
		<description>Modern day segregationists are overwhelmingly black, and democrat.

Have you gone to a large university lately, and observed the black students cafeteria, the black students dormitory, the black student center, black studies department, etc etc?  Republicans did not segregate black students in that way.

Likewise the neosegregation of all black private and charter elementary schools etc.  All black education all the way through college, medical school etc.  These are not republican initiatives.  Strictly speaking, since integration, there has not been a need to maintain these historically black schools.  But republicans donate their hard earned money to these causes just like democrats.

Successful black businessmen often hire blacks overwhelmingly, far above their representation in the population.  A white person could not segregate his workforce in this manner.  But it is done voluntarily.

Blacks could go to any church they like, but often group together in all black churches.  Blacks who have an economic choice of neighborhoods often choose neighborhoods that are predominately black.  Successful blacks often move to communities like Atlanta or Washington DC where blacks perform most civic duties.

Republicans don't make them do all this, and much more that comprises neo-segregation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Modern day segregationists are overwhelmingly black, and democrat.</p>
<p>Have you gone to a large university lately, and observed the black students cafeteria, the black students dormitory, the black student center, black studies department, etc etc?  Republicans did not segregate black students in that way.</p>
<p>Likewise the neosegregation of all black private and charter elementary schools etc.  All black education all the way through college, medical school etc.  These are not republican initiatives.  Strictly speaking, since integration, there has not been a need to maintain these historically black schools.  But republicans donate their hard earned money to these causes just like democrats.</p>
<p>Successful black businessmen often hire blacks overwhelmingly, far above their representation in the population.  A white person could not segregate his workforce in this manner.  But it is done voluntarily.</p>
<p>Blacks could go to any church they like, but often group together in all black churches.  Blacks who have an economic choice of neighborhoods often choose neighborhoods that are predominately black.  Successful blacks often move to communities like Atlanta or Washington DC where blacks perform most civic duties.</p>
<p>Republicans don&#8217;t make them do all this, and much more that comprises neo-segregation.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Brandshaft</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2004/07/31/restricted/#comment-16845</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Brandshaft</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Aug 2004 05:16:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobsblog.com/2004/07/31/restricted/#comment-16845</guid>
		<description>"Actually, my friend, it was the southern democrats who tried to block civil rights legislation in the 50s and 60s."

Correct. That was the initial alignment.   Eventually, high profile segregationists turned Republican.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Actually, my friend, it was the southern democrats who tried to block civil rights legislation in the 50s and 60s.&#8221;</p>
<p>Correct. That was the initial alignment.   Eventually, high profile segregationists turned Republican.</p>
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		<title>By: Fleming</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2004/07/31/restricted/#comment-16844</link>
		<dc:creator>Fleming</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Aug 2004 21:37:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobsblog.com/2004/07/31/restricted/#comment-16844</guid>
		<description>Actually, my friend, it was the southern democrats who tried to block civil rights legislation in the 50s and 60s.  Northern democrats allied with republicans to get the legislation passed.

And just who posed this as a republican vs. the rest issue?  Could it be a certain Richard Brandshaft?  

Look, a lot of people like to talk just to hear themselves.  They would thrive in any sort of class environment that gave them a voice.

Others are insecure, and feel the need to attend a school where everyone looks the same as themselves.  All female schools.  All particular ethnic schools.  etc.  

This class looks like neo-segregation coming in the back door.
;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, my friend, it was the southern democrats who tried to block civil rights legislation in the 50s and 60s.  Northern democrats allied with republicans to get the legislation passed.</p>
<p>And just who posed this as a republican vs. the rest issue?  Could it be a certain Richard Brandshaft?  </p>
<p>Look, a lot of people like to talk just to hear themselves.  They would thrive in any sort of class environment that gave them a voice.</p>
<p>Others are insecure, and feel the need to attend a school where everyone looks the same as themselves.  All female schools.  All particular ethnic schools.  etc.  </p>
<p>This class looks like neo-segregation coming in the back door. <img src='http://joannejacobs.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Richard Brandshaft</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2004/07/31/restricted/#comment-16843</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Brandshaft</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Aug 2004 20:17:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobsblog.com/2004/07/31/restricted/#comment-16843</guid>
		<description>I am old enough to remember Republicans fighting every anti-discrimination law.  And of course to a Republican, everyone else's lawsuits are frivolous.  The word "hypocrites" comes to mind.  Exactly how are the Republicans hurt by this class?  Or are the Republicans so concerned about someone else being hurt that they are rushing to the defense with uncharacteristic altruism?  If so, who are they defending?  It couldn't be a bunch of knee jerk conservatives filing a lawsuit against something they consider liberal just to be destructive and cause a lot of unnecessary trouble and expense.  Could it?

Foobarista,
"...asked your opinion about this and that "as an American". When I was living overseas, I always found this uncomfortable..."

I such a situation, I say, "I can't give the typical American opinion, but my opinion is..."  or, "Most Americans disagree with me, but my opinion is..."   I can't read my listener's minds, but it seems to work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am old enough to remember Republicans fighting every anti-discrimination law.  And of course to a Republican, everyone else&#8217;s lawsuits are frivolous.  The word &#8220;hypocrites&#8221; comes to mind.  Exactly how are the Republicans hurt by this class?  Or are the Republicans so concerned about someone else being hurt that they are rushing to the defense with uncharacteristic altruism?  If so, who are they defending?  It couldn&#8217;t be a bunch of knee jerk conservatives filing a lawsuit against something they consider liberal just to be destructive and cause a lot of unnecessary trouble and expense.  Could it?</p>
<p>Foobarista,<br />
&#8220;&#8230;asked your opinion about this and that &#8220;as an American&#8221;. When I was living overseas, I always found this uncomfortable&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>I such a situation, I say, &#8220;I can&#8217;t give the typical American opinion, but my opinion is&#8230;&#8221;  or, &#8220;Most Americans disagree with me, but my opinion is&#8230;&#8221;   I can&#8217;t read my listener&#8217;s minds, but it seems to work.</p>
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		<title>By: Laura</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2004/07/31/restricted/#comment-16842</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Aug 2004 16:26:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobsblog.com/2004/07/31/restricted/#comment-16842</guid>
		<description>Well, I love Kate's attitude.

But as John says, nobody can really speak for the group.  Even being a member of the group doesn't automatically mean you know much about it.  Everybody is an expert on their own experiences, of course, but nothing else should be assumed.

My black former coworker, who is from Kentucky, asked me once if living conditions for black folks in the Mississippi Delta are really that bad.  Oh yes, I told her; I told her about those conditions, and about the history of slavery in that specific region and how that ties into how things are there now.  She told me then that her father's family were sharecroppers there who snuck out in the middle of the night and moved "north" to Kentucky.  No one really talked about it and she didn't know what sharecropping meant, so I told her all about that and about why her father's family had to leave in secret.  (And were right to do so.)  

So here is one significant part of the black experience in America that I, white person X, knew more about than my friend, black person Y.  When you get down to individuals you really have no idea what they can or cannot contribute to a discussion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I love Kate&#8217;s attitude.</p>
<p>But as John says, nobody can really speak for the group.  Even being a member of the group doesn&#8217;t automatically mean you know much about it.  Everybody is an expert on their own experiences, of course, but nothing else should be assumed.</p>
<p>My black former coworker, who is from Kentucky, asked me once if living conditions for black folks in the Mississippi Delta are really that bad.  Oh yes, I told her; I told her about those conditions, and about the history of slavery in that specific region and how that ties into how things are there now.  She told me then that her father&#8217;s family were sharecroppers there who snuck out in the middle of the night and moved &#8220;north&#8221; to Kentucky.  No one really talked about it and she didn&#8217;t know what sharecropping meant, so I told her all about that and about why her father&#8217;s family had to leave in secret.  (And were right to do so.)  </p>
<p>So here is one significant part of the black experience in America that I, white person X, knew more about than my friend, black person Y.  When you get down to individuals you really have no idea what they can or cannot contribute to a discussion.</p>
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