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	<title>Comments on: Godless college</title>
	<atom:link href="http://joannejacobs.com/2005/06/30/godless-college/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2005/06/30/godless-college/</link>
	<description>Free-linking and thinking on education by Joanne Jacobs</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 15:43:28 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Ross the Heartless Conservative</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2005/06/30/godless-college/#comment-25241</link>
		<dc:creator>Ross the Heartless Conservative</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Jul 2005 19:28:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobsblog.com/2005/06/30/godless-college/#comment-25241</guid>
		<description>Amritas,
Nice post on July 1, 2005 at 08:10 PM. 
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amritas,<br />
Nice post on July 1, 2005 at 08:10 PM.</p>
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		<title>By: Amritas</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2005/06/30/godless-college/#comment-25240</link>
		<dc:creator>Amritas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Jul 2005 02:19:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobsblog.com/2005/06/30/godless-college/#comment-25240</guid>
		<description>It would be also too easy for a militant atheist student to write something like, "It is self-evident that there is NO one true God; therefore God has NO place in government" followed by reformulations of &lt;i&gt;that&lt;/i&gt; statement.

It is possible though unlikely that the instructor could in fact be pro-religion and does not want (a) such atheist attacks and/or (b) one-note trumpeting of the "obvious" which he may feel is not only inappropriate for a term paper but also a trivialization of his faith.

The ACLJ's demand that the instructor "receive some kind of training to sensitize him to the constitutional dimensions of his employment in a public educational institution" reminds me of the Oregon "summer diversity seminar" mentioned in another recent post.

It is ironic that advocates of free speech want to force someone to think the way they do. Free speech for me, not thee ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would be also too easy for a militant atheist student to write something like, &#8220;It is self-evident that there is NO one true God; therefore God has NO place in government&#8221; followed by reformulations of <i>that</i> statement.</p>
<p>It is possible though unlikely that the instructor could in fact be pro-religion and does not want (a) such atheist attacks and/or (b) one-note trumpeting of the &#8220;obvious&#8221; which he may feel is not only inappropriate for a term paper but also a trivialization of his faith.</p>
<p>The ACLJ&#8217;s demand that the instructor &#8220;receive some kind of training to sensitize him to the constitutional dimensions of his employment in a public educational institution&#8221; reminds me of the Oregon &#8220;summer diversity seminar&#8221; mentioned in another recent post.</p>
<p>It is ironic that advocates of free speech want to force someone to think the way they do. Free speech for me, not thee &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Amritas</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2005/06/30/godless-college/#comment-25239</link>
		<dc:creator>Amritas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Jul 2005 02:10:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobsblog.com/2005/06/30/godless-college/#comment-25239</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;"No mention of big 'G' gods, i.e., one, true god argumentation."&lt;/i&gt;

If I had said such a thing after approving the topic "Religion and its Place within the Government," here's why I would have done it:

It would be too easy for a student to write something like, "It is self-evident that there is one true God; therefore God has a proper place in government" followed by reformulations of that statement. Regardless of whether that stance is correct or not, reiterations of the same point do not result in a term paper worthy of the name.

It is quite possible to write about that topic in more than one way without resorting to "one true god argumentation." (NB: I am not necessarily endorsing these views.  I am merely providing examples.)

A: "The United States was founded by Christians and is still a Christian-dominated nation to this day, centuries later.  A democracy should have a government reflecting the beliefs of its people ..."  (AFAIK, the instructor did not forbid the word "Christian.")

B: "The United States has never been religiously uniform, and its religious diversity is increasing every day.  If the government is to serve &lt;i&gt;all&lt;/i&gt; its people, it cannot favor one religion over another ..."

I should point out that the title of the paper contained the word "religion," not the name of any particular religion.  In an American context, "religion" can be a &lt;i&gt;de facto&lt;/i&gt; synonym for "Christianity," but it need not be, because of the multiple religions that exist in the US. And the student could have referred to other countries' church (or mosque, temple, etc.) and state policies, so in such circumstances, "religion" need not have involved the big "G" God.

Although the instructor outlawed the mention of "big 'G' gods," he may have permitted references to gods in general: e.g.,

A: "The United States government must respect the many gods of its diverse population by implementing the following policies that support their faiths ..."

or

B: "The United States government must not favor one god over another ..."

Moreover, it would be an error to equate "religion" with "theism" because of Buddhism which is not explicitly theistic.

Needless to say, I have no idea what the instructor's motivation was; my point is that his request need not have been unreasonable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;No mention of big &#8216;G&#8217; gods, i.e., one, true god argumentation.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>If I had said such a thing after approving the topic &#8220;Religion and its Place within the Government,&#8221; here&#8217;s why I would have done it:</p>
<p>It would be too easy for a student to write something like, &#8220;It is self-evident that there is one true God; therefore God has a proper place in government&#8221; followed by reformulations of that statement. Regardless of whether that stance is correct or not, reiterations of the same point do not result in a term paper worthy of the name.</p>
<p>It is quite possible to write about that topic in more than one way without resorting to &#8220;one true god argumentation.&#8221; (NB: I am not necessarily endorsing these views.  I am merely providing examples.)</p>
<p>A: &#8220;The United States was founded by Christians and is still a Christian-dominated nation to this day, centuries later.  A democracy should have a government reflecting the beliefs of its people &#8230;&#8221;  (AFAIK, the instructor did not forbid the word &#8220;Christian.&#8221;)</p>
<p>B: &#8220;The United States has never been religiously uniform, and its religious diversity is increasing every day.  If the government is to serve <i>all</i> its people, it cannot favor one religion over another &#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>I should point out that the title of the paper contained the word &#8220;religion,&#8221; not the name of any particular religion.  In an American context, &#8220;religion&#8221; can be a <i>de facto</i> synonym for &#8220;Christianity,&#8221; but it need not be, because of the multiple religions that exist in the US. And the student could have referred to other countries&#8217; church (or mosque, temple, etc.) and state policies, so in such circumstances, &#8220;religion&#8221; need not have involved the big &#8220;G&#8221; God.</p>
<p>Although the instructor outlawed the mention of &#8220;big &#8216;G&#8217; gods,&#8221; he may have permitted references to gods in general: e.g.,</p>
<p>A: &#8220;The United States government must respect the many gods of its diverse population by implementing the following policies that support their faiths &#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>or</p>
<p>B: &#8220;The United States government must not favor one god over another &#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Moreover, it would be an error to equate &#8220;religion&#8221; with &#8220;theism&#8221; because of Buddhism which is not explicitly theistic.</p>
<p>Needless to say, I have no idea what the instructor&#8217;s motivation was; my point is that his request need not have been unreasonable.</p>
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		<title>By: Bart</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2005/06/30/godless-college/#comment-25238</link>
		<dc:creator>Bart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jul 2005 18:38:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobsblog.com/2005/06/30/godless-college/#comment-25238</guid>
		<description>And I thought the "G" word was "Gifted."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And I thought the &#8220;G&#8221; word was &#8220;Gifted.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Beeman</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2005/06/30/godless-college/#comment-25237</link>
		<dc:creator>Beeman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jul 2005 17:18:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobsblog.com/2005/06/30/godless-college/#comment-25237</guid>
		<description>The teacher was being petty, and letting his own prejudices get in the way of teaching.  How can one write about "Religion and its Place in Government" without mentioning the big-G God followed by most religionists?

And Hauf, IMO, would still have gotten an F if she used terms such as: Creator, the One, Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah, or Brahman.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The teacher was being petty, and letting his own prejudices get in the way of teaching.  How can one write about &#8220;Religion and its Place in Government&#8221; without mentioning the big-G God followed by most religionists?</p>
<p>And Hauf, IMO, would still have gotten an F if she used terms such as: Creator, the One, Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah, or Brahman.</p>
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		<title>By: nstaats</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2005/06/30/godless-college/#comment-25236</link>
		<dc:creator>nstaats</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jul 2005 16:42:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobsblog.com/2005/06/30/godless-college/#comment-25236</guid>
		<description>The student deliberately violated the rules, knowing the consequences. She picked a topic that was almost impossible to write about if she wanted to adhere to the rules.  She should have picked another topic.  

The rules were outlined, the student knew them in advance, but violated the rules anyway.  She deserved what she got.

In college, your essays are more than just adhering to grammar rules.  They just have a point, a coherent thought, have a purpose, and follow the rules set for them.

Such is life.  In life, if I don't follow the rules, I get a big fat "F" - I get no breaks just because I believe in God.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The student deliberately violated the rules, knowing the consequences. She picked a topic that was almost impossible to write about if she wanted to adhere to the rules.  She should have picked another topic.  </p>
<p>The rules were outlined, the student knew them in advance, but violated the rules anyway.  She deserved what she got.</p>
<p>In college, your essays are more than just adhering to grammar rules.  They just have a point, a coherent thought, have a purpose, and follow the rules set for them.</p>
<p>Such is life.  In life, if I don&#8217;t follow the rules, I get a big fat &#8220;F&#8221; - I get no breaks just because I believe in God.</p>
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		<title>By: Suzi</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2005/06/30/godless-college/#comment-25235</link>
		<dc:creator>Suzi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jul 2005 16:16:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobsblog.com/2005/06/30/godless-college/#comment-25235</guid>
		<description>I think that she most likely made a C because she made an F on the paper.  What does that tell us about the rest of her grades?  They were very good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that she most likely made a C because she made an F on the paper.  What does that tell us about the rest of her grades?  They were very good.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Tabor</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2005/06/30/godless-college/#comment-25234</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Tabor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jul 2005 10:07:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobsblog.com/2005/06/30/godless-college/#comment-25234</guid>
		<description>Does anyone know *why* he asked that she not mention God? I don't have time today to check the rest of the blogosphere/news, so I hope someone can answer. Most likely the prof. is as this article, a billion blogs, etc. portray him. But...

When I was teaching university classes I often gave similar assignments - removing such a central concept [yes, I agree that God is awfully important when discussing Christianity] forces students to research/understand certain topics much deeper than if they could use those concepts as starting/return points on which many university-level papers rely.  

I can't imagine that a CC prof. would have this in mind, but it can make for some interesting challenges - and in turn, interesting papers - for stronger students.

Disagree? Write a page about Christianity using the term "God" as much as you want. Write another without using it all - and that doesn't mean substituting terms like "Creator." You'll find one more difficult than the other.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does anyone know *why* he asked that she not mention God? I don&#8217;t have time today to check the rest of the blogosphere/news, so I hope someone can answer. Most likely the prof. is as this article, a billion blogs, etc. portray him. But&#8230;</p>
<p>When I was teaching university classes I often gave similar assignments - removing such a central concept [yes, I agree that God is awfully important when discussing Christianity] forces students to research/understand certain topics much deeper than if they could use those concepts as starting/return points on which many university-level papers rely.  </p>
<p>I can&#8217;t imagine that a CC prof. would have this in mind, but it can make for some interesting challenges - and in turn, interesting papers - for stronger students.</p>
<p>Disagree? Write a page about Christianity using the term &#8220;God&#8221; as much as you want. Write another without using it all - and that doesn&#8217;t mean substituting terms like &#8220;Creator.&#8221; You&#8217;ll find one more difficult than the other.</p>
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		<title>By: andyo</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2005/06/30/godless-college/#comment-25233</link>
		<dc:creator>andyo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jul 2005 02:32:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobsblog.com/2005/06/30/godless-college/#comment-25233</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Joanne wrote:&lt;/b&gt;
&lt;i&gt;Despite the failing grade on the paper, Hauf received a C in the English 101 course.&lt;/i&gt;

Sounds like she won, to me. She took her complaint up the chain of command, but that didn't help. She chose to write the paper her way, despite the rulings. She failed on the paper, but &lt;i&gt;passed the course anyway&lt;/i&gt;. What better way to tell the athiest professor to go ^@#$ himself?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Joanne wrote:</b><br />
<i>Despite the failing grade on the paper, Hauf received a C in the English 101 course.</i></p>
<p>Sounds like she won, to me. She took her complaint up the chain of command, but that didn&#8217;t help. She chose to write the paper her way, despite the rulings. She failed on the paper, but <i>passed the course anyway</i>. What better way to tell the athiest professor to go ^@#$ himself?</p>
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		<title>By: Ross the Heartless Conservative</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2005/06/30/godless-college/#comment-25232</link>
		<dc:creator>Ross the Heartless Conservative</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jun 2005 23:24:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobsblog.com/2005/06/30/godless-college/#comment-25232</guid>
		<description>By the way, when I say conservatives or liberals I am referring to people who actually believe in that particular philosophy. Most politicians will shift their beliefs to whatever is convenient at the time. The Republicans maddening positions on medical marijuana and the Terry Schiavo case are two examples where fundamental beliefs were discarded to advance a particular agenda.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the way, when I say conservatives or liberals I am referring to people who actually believe in that particular philosophy. Most politicians will shift their beliefs to whatever is convenient at the time. The Republicans maddening positions on medical marijuana and the Terry Schiavo case are two examples where fundamental beliefs were discarded to advance a particular agenda.</p>
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