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	<title>Comments on: Arts and crafts forever</title>
	<atom:link href="http://joannejacobs.com/2005/09/02/arts-and-crafts-forever/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2005/09/02/arts-and-crafts-forever/</link>
	<description>Free-linking and thinking on education by Joanne Jacobs</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2008 07:08:19 +0000</pubDate>
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		<item>
		<title>By: Moebius Stripper</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2005/09/02/arts-and-crafts-forever/#comment-26896</link>
		<dc:creator>Moebius Stripper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Sep 2005 05:30:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobsblog.com/2005/09/02/arts-and-crafts-forever/#comment-26896</guid>
		<description>Cal, how's your English? Or, for that matter, your logic? You said, &lt;i&gt;&lt;b&gt;Any&lt;/b&gt; kid taking precalc as a junior knows basic algebra--collage or not, verbs or not.&lt;/i&gt; I said, no, some kids don't: I've had some in my class. You countered with, "but wait, ON AVERAGE KIDS TAKING PRECALCULUS KNOW BASIC ALGEBRA, look at the SAT scores!" and then slammed me for confusing "anecdata with real data". (Never mind that I teach in Canada, so your data on SATs is irrelevant to my region.)

Cal: &lt;b&gt;A single counterexample is required to demonstrate that a claim is false.&lt;/b&gt; I learned that in a high school math class. Had I been been using my several years' experience to argue that &lt;i&gt;most kids&lt;/i&gt; who take precalculus know basic algebra, then your accusation would be valid. Or, you can continue to confuse pat insults with logical arguments. It's your choice, of course.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cal, how&#8217;s your English? Or, for that matter, your logic? You said, <i><b>Any</b> kid taking precalc as a junior knows basic algebra&#8211;collage or not, verbs or not.</i> I said, no, some kids don&#8217;t: I&#8217;ve had some in my class. You countered with, &#8220;but wait, ON AVERAGE KIDS TAKING PRECALCULUS KNOW BASIC ALGEBRA, look at the SAT scores!&#8221; and then slammed me for confusing &#8220;anecdata with real data&#8221;. (Never mind that I teach in Canada, so your data on SATs is irrelevant to my region.)</p>
<p>Cal: <b>A single counterexample is required to demonstrate that a claim is false.</b> I learned that in a high school math class. Had I been been using my several years&#8217; experience to argue that <i>most kids</i> who take precalculus know basic algebra, then your accusation would be valid. Or, you can continue to confuse pat insults with logical arguments. It&#8217;s your choice, of course.</p>
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		<title>By: Cal</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2005/09/02/arts-and-crafts-forever/#comment-26895</link>
		<dc:creator>Cal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Sep 2005 03:19:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobsblog.com/2005/09/02/arts-and-crafts-forever/#comment-26895</guid>
		<description>"Ha. Ha. Ha. Hoo boy; that's a howler. I had precalc students who didn't know that fractions were numbers."

The SAT math scores of high school seniors nationwide have a median of just above 500, which can't be achieved without a basic understanding of both algebra and fractions. And then remember that the kids taking precalc are, as a group, doing much better than just slightly over 500. I'm sure that some small percentage of the poor and minority kids who sit in pre-calc classes haven't absorbed any math, but they are a fraction of the whole.

Or  you can continue to confuse actual data with anecdata.  It's your choice, of course.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Ha. Ha. Ha. Hoo boy; that&#8217;s a howler. I had precalc students who didn&#8217;t know that fractions were numbers.&#8221;</p>
<p>The SAT math scores of high school seniors nationwide have a median of just above 500, which can&#8217;t be achieved without a basic understanding of both algebra and fractions. And then remember that the kids taking precalc are, as a group, doing much better than just slightly over 500. I&#8217;m sure that some small percentage of the poor and minority kids who sit in pre-calc classes haven&#8217;t absorbed any math, but they are a fraction of the whole.</p>
<p>Or  you can continue to confuse actual data with anecdata.  It&#8217;s your choice, of course.</p>
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		<title>By: Moebius Stripper</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2005/09/02/arts-and-crafts-forever/#comment-26894</link>
		<dc:creator>Moebius Stripper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Sep 2005 02:13:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobsblog.com/2005/09/02/arts-and-crafts-forever/#comment-26894</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;No, actually, it doesn't. Any kid taking precalc as a junior knows basic algebra--collage or not, verbs or not.&lt;/i&gt;

Ha. Ha. Ha. Hoo boy; that's a howler. I had precalc students who didn't know that fractions were numbers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>No, actually, it doesn&#8217;t. Any kid taking precalc as a junior knows basic algebra&#8211;collage or not, verbs or not.</i></p>
<p>Ha. Ha. Ha. Hoo boy; that&#8217;s a howler. I had precalc students who didn&#8217;t know that fractions were numbers.</p>
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		<title>By: Beeman</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2005/09/02/arts-and-crafts-forever/#comment-26893</link>
		<dc:creator>Beeman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Sep 2005 22:15:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobsblog.com/2005/09/02/arts-and-crafts-forever/#comment-26893</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Maybe we can have an economy based on collages and similar arts &#38; crafts projects.&lt;/i&gt;

Doesn't that describe Hollywood?  Or am I giving it too much credit?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Maybe we can have an economy based on collages and similar arts &amp; crafts projects.</i></p>
<p>Doesn&#8217;t that describe Hollywood?  Or am I giving it too much credit?</p>
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		<title>By: photoncourier.blogspot.com</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2005/09/02/arts-and-crafts-forever/#comment-26892</link>
		<dc:creator>photoncourier.blogspot.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Sep 2005 15:05:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobsblog.com/2005/09/02/arts-and-crafts-forever/#comment-26892</guid>
		<description>Maybe we can have an economy based on collages and similar arts &#38; crafts projects. Instead of sending civil engineers to reconstruct bridges, etc in New Oreleans--which might involve some actual algebra--we could just put up giant collages and do some more emoting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe we can have an economy based on collages and similar arts &amp; crafts projects. Instead of sending civil engineers to reconstruct bridges, etc in New Oreleans&#8211;which might involve some actual algebra&#8211;we could just put up giant collages and do some more emoting.</p>
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		<title>By: Cal</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2005/09/02/arts-and-crafts-forever/#comment-26891</link>
		<dc:creator>Cal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Sep 2005 00:58:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobsblog.com/2005/09/02/arts-and-crafts-forever/#comment-26891</guid>
		<description>"And all of a sudden, my college students' inability to basic algebra all makes sense."

No, actually, it doesn't. Any kid taking precalc as a junior knows basic algebra--collage or not, verbs or not. 

The collages, the poster boards, the drawings--they're all disgusting jokes perpetrated on high-achieving students by teachers who didn't do nearly as well when they themselves were in school. Most likely, this is part of their revenge on smart people. But by and large, the teachers in quality schools are teaching well. 

The real issue in school these days is grades, not collages or other absurd artwork. It's quite normal for the kid to get a D on the collage and have it count as a fourth of his grade, with the As in the tests and homework only counting for 50%.

Grades are becoming a monstrous joke. The elite kids are getting Bs and Cs for work that would give them an A in any other class, and the kids in urban and poor performing schools are getting As for work so incompetent that 8th graders would be flunked for it. And yet they are all being compared as equals for college admissions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;And all of a sudden, my college students&#8217; inability to basic algebra all makes sense.&#8221;</p>
<p>No, actually, it doesn&#8217;t. Any kid taking precalc as a junior knows basic algebra&#8211;collage or not, verbs or not. </p>
<p>The collages, the poster boards, the drawings&#8211;they&#8217;re all disgusting jokes perpetrated on high-achieving students by teachers who didn&#8217;t do nearly as well when they themselves were in school. Most likely, this is part of their revenge on smart people. But by and large, the teachers in quality schools are teaching well. </p>
<p>The real issue in school these days is grades, not collages or other absurd artwork. It&#8217;s quite normal for the kid to get a D on the collage and have it count as a fourth of his grade, with the As in the tests and homework only counting for 50%.</p>
<p>Grades are becoming a monstrous joke. The elite kids are getting Bs and Cs for work that would give them an A in any other class, and the kids in urban and poor performing schools are getting As for work so incompetent that 8th graders would be flunked for it. And yet they are all being compared as equals for college admissions.</p>
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		<title>By: Beth Donovan</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2005/09/02/arts-and-crafts-forever/#comment-26890</link>
		<dc:creator>Beth Donovan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Sep 2005 20:07:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobsblog.com/2005/09/02/arts-and-crafts-forever/#comment-26890</guid>
		<description>This is not terribly new - when my (now a Junior in College) was in 5th grade at a highly touted middle school in a highly though of school district in Kansas (Olathe School District), his math teacher decided that he was a sub-standard math student because his math project looked so bad - he was supposed to build a house out of paper.  She gave him the only D of his school career.

It happens that my son hates arts and crafts and is now a computer science major with well over 24 hours of advanced math courses behind him.  

And she told me that he needed remedial math help.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is not terribly new - when my (now a Junior in College) was in 5th grade at a highly touted middle school in a highly though of school district in Kansas (Olathe School District), his math teacher decided that he was a sub-standard math student because his math project looked so bad - he was supposed to build a house out of paper.  She gave him the only D of his school career.</p>
<p>It happens that my son hates arts and crafts and is now a computer science major with well over 24 hours of advanced math courses behind him.  </p>
<p>And she told me that he needed remedial math help.</p>
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		<title>By: chug</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2005/09/02/arts-and-crafts-forever/#comment-26889</link>
		<dc:creator>chug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Sep 2005 19:53:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobsblog.com/2005/09/02/arts-and-crafts-forever/#comment-26889</guid>
		<description>In a few years, will we see "Opening Collages" in court cases? ...  http://www.ishkabible.com/archives/2005/09/arts_and_crafts.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In a few years, will we see &#8220;Opening Collages&#8221; in court cases? &#8230;  <a href="http://www.ishkabible.com/archives/2005/09/arts_and_crafts.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.ishkabible.com/archives/2005/09/arts_and_crafts.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jim C.</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2005/09/02/arts-and-crafts-forever/#comment-26888</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim C.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Sep 2005 17:07:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobsblog.com/2005/09/02/arts-and-crafts-forever/#comment-26888</guid>
		<description>I keep on thinking the education system can't get any more stupid and irrelevant.  Then I read about garbage like this.

The first chance I get to move to another planet, I'm outa here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I keep on thinking the education system can&#8217;t get any more stupid and irrelevant.  Then I read about garbage like this.</p>
<p>The first chance I get to move to another planet, I&#8217;m outa here.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Schuler</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2005/09/02/arts-and-crafts-forever/#comment-26887</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Schuler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Sep 2005 16:36:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobsblog.com/2005/09/02/arts-and-crafts-forever/#comment-26887</guid>
		<description>I suppose this is what they mean by &#147;the old collage try&#148;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suppose this is what they mean by &#8220;the old collage try&#8221;.</p>
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