Military recruiters are having trouble getting names, addresses and phone numbers of students at some high schools as middle-class parents sign forms requesting confidentiality. The Dayton Daily News contrasts opt-outs at affluent, nearly all-white Beavercreek High, where 1,369 parents signed forms in 2005 compared to 2 in 2004. At some other area schools, opt-outs still run in the 0 to 1 range.
Some parents think their teen-agers aren’t ready to make life decisions, reports the Christian Science Monitor, which has a round-up on the issue.
That’s teaching them that obligation is a one way street. When those parents get older, they may wonder why their kids don’t care.
But don’t question their patriotism.
Considering the way they are probably being raised, the parents are right - they aren’t ready to make life descisons.
And this just cements that they never will.
What bothers me is that Beavercreek High is located right next to Wright Patterson AFB and a lot of the kids who attend there are the children of Air Force members. It is a slap in the face of the whole group of families who make that upper class community exist. They are such total hypocrites that it is hard to understand them at all.
Why not just return all those nasty federal chacks uncashed. That will show them!
Do schools still teach what happened to the doctrine of interposition?
Military recruiters lie.
I would have the high schools give out the names and phone numbers to used car salesmen.
I went to high school at Carroll HS (Catholic) from 1997-2001, which was quite close to Beavercreek. The only thing that distinguished that district was the financial extravagance of the school board on expenditures and capital projects for itself. It was at best mediocre both academically and even in sports. Many of the actual military folks live in Riverside, Dayton, Huber Heights, and Fairborn, I think. We got plenty of the rich Beavercreek kids at Carroll, though. Ironically, we are the Patriots.
With these mostly baby boomer and Gen X parents, these kids won’t be able to make life decisions as adults, either. The message is clear: those who stand for nothing will fall for anything. These spineless ciphers want to reap all the benefits of freedoms paid for in blood, sweat and tears of others, but bear none of the costs.
Blood, sweat and tears are being paid, but not for the benefit of freedom, but for faulty intelligence.
But our president has admitted his error, he’s learned his lesson, and he promises that his future decisions will not have anything to do with intelligence.
I slept and dreamt that life was joy;
I awoke and found that life was duty.
Reinstating the draft might be an option that would end the tupe of bickering going on here. At least people in Congress would be talking about the real issue: What are we doing over there?
All intelligence is faulty, since intelligence is the best guess from fragmentary information. Kinda like Arabs taking flying lessons that did not include takeoffs and landings.
‘Military recruiters lie.’
So do college and employment recruiters, as well as teachers and administrators. Obviously they shouldn’t be allowed to contact HS kids.
Why don’t they just tell the truth and admit they don’t support the military and it’s role in defending the country? Because they’re liars.
The US Census claims that only about 4% of the US population has served in the military (Y2K Census). During WWII, there were about 16M (out of 120M) in uniform.
The long term security of our country depends on the people being willing to defend the country via force of arms. Hopefully the impact of the ’60s generation will soon fade, and people will again recognize the value of military service.
M J Wise,
You are right about the military families living in the other communities. However, my point was that so many of the civilians and upper class military live in Beavercreek and then get fantods that their kids might actually get to hear from a military recruiter.
What it reminds me of (off topic a little) is when I was in the service back in the days of Kennedy. I was initially stationed at Fort Gordon which is located right outside Augusta, Ga. The fort employed over 35K civilians and the population of Augusta at the time was about 70K. As you can see the employment at Fort Gordon supported a whole lot of the community. However, if you were a serviceman and went into a store in Augusta you could see the attitude flags go up with the clerks. Even if you were in civvies they would look at your shoes and if you wore military shoes you were treated worse than the blacks (and that was when they had segregation). If you went into a restaurant you got the worst tables. If you wanted to meet a local girl you had to go to the Baptist church for a couple of weeks and then maybe you could meet one.
What Beavercreek is doing strikes me as being a statement much like the way we were treated in Augusta a long time ago. When needed they want you front and center, otherwise go away. I will be so glad when this Boomer generation goes away!!
Chinese Proverb: Good Iron is not made into nails. Good men do not become soldiers.
It has always been ths way. My mother was very dissapointed in me when I enlisted. I know lots of miltary families who do not want their children enlisting.
My father said, “The Army makes good men better and bad men worse.”
From my experience that is true. The idea that you can make a dull, immature and violent boy into a soldier is just plain wrong. The lucky ones got discharged for “failure to adjust to military life”. The unlucky ones were court martialed The first option probably no longer exists. The armed forces have no place for a troubled young man.
Are their any Army towns whose primary industry is not ripping off soldiers?
I had to get this one in:
No man who refuses to bear arms in defense of his nation can give a sound reason why he should be allowed to live in a free country. –T. Roosevelt
They still do failure to adjust discharges but you have to get it pretty quickly - my husband said generally within the first year.
Are their any Army towns whose primary industry is not ripping off soldiers?
That cracked me up - I don’t think there are. But, I must say there are degrees. Having just gone from Wahiawa, Hawaii to Fayetteville, NC, Fayetteville residents are much bigger cheerleaders for the military.
OK, Jack. I’m a teacher and I admit I don’t support the military.
Seeing as what the military has been doing and why, I consider it a dishonor to support it.
Robert -
I guess it’s wrong in your eyes for the military to be rebuilding schools so that both boys and girls can attend, training Iraqi soldiers so that they can eventually defend their own country, and protecting the Iraqi people from the terrorists who continue to prey on their own. Yeah, that’s truly terrible!!
Our military is the finest group of men and women on this planet. There are a few who do stupid things, and unfortunately they get all of the publicity (sound a little like teachers?). They removed a ruthless dictator from power who murdered over half a million of his own people and terrorized countless others, and now is working to make the country stable and safe. Seventy percent of Iraqis say that life is better now than before our troops arrived. Still think our being there is a bad idea??
Jill, if all I knew about our military is what I learned from Fox News, yes, I might have a more favorable opinion.
I’m wondering if you know what the poll results are when Iraqis are asked if they favor an immediate withdrawl of American forces.
The majority of Iraqis are anti-American and feel that their country was invaded, not liberated.
Look at the newsreels of how G.I.’s were welcomed when Paris was liberated. You don’t see that in Iraq. Iraqis feel invaded, not liberated.
The American military occupation is spawning terrorism, not combatting it.
No, our military is not the finest men and women on this planet. They are a collection of dupes.
Our finest have either deserted or were wise enough not to enlist in the first place.
Sgt. Kevin Benderman of Georgia and Sgt. Camilo Mejia are our countries real heroes.
The president lied. There were no WMD. Iraq was not a threat. However, it’s becoming a threat with all the anti-Americanism that our troops are causing.
So, Robert, where do you get your news? Air America? MoveOn.org? No bias there.
And Bush “lied” about WMD? Then so did Clinton, Albright, Ted Kennedy, the French, the Germans and a host of others. Could it be the President acted on the intelligence he had, or did he orchestrate and obfuscate intelligence from the CIA, the British, the French so he could have an excuse to invade?
About those French. Any student of WWII can tell you the French were not unanimous in their enthusiasm for US troops being on their soil in 1944. Many French people actually preferred the Germans to the Americans. Maybe I’m wrong. There must be some explanation for their appreciation of us.
In any case, Robert, what it boils down to is that America’s finest are those who are anti-military. If there were a Jane Fonda Patriotism Award, you could be a candidate for it.
Robert,
At least you are honest, none of that fake “I support the troops” crap for you.
I would point out that when we initially rolled into Baghdad, there was celebration in the streets. I think its a little much to expect that to continue daily for years.
Also, the fact that Iraqis want America out now is separate from the fact that they did want to be liberated. According to my husband who spent a year longer in the country than you did, the vast majority of Iraqis are glad Saddam is gone, glad we got rid of him and now want to be on their own.
It’s certainly scary to see that someone who is so convinced of their own narrow viewpoint that they would disparage any one with different beliefs is teaching children.
Mr. Bing:
1. Where do I get my news? New York Times, Newsweek, The Washington Post, NPR, CNN, Christian Science Monitor, Knight-Ridder. I’m not a fan of MoveOn.org.
2. Did Bush actually lie? That was probably an over simplification on my part. But there is evidence that his decision to invade Iraq preceeded the intelligence and that his effort to find a link between Saddam and Al Qaeda was contrary to all intelligence.
3. I didn’t know there was French opposition to the American liberation. But even when the U.S. liberated Germany and Japan, forces there didn’t come undertake from underground holdouts. Not one U.S. soldier either in Germany or Japan were killed by snipers. My source on that is the U. S. military.
4. As for Jane Fonda, I admire her greatly.
Jennifer,
1. When our troops rolled into Baghdad, network camera crews went looking for celebrations and they found a few. Rows of people with blank stares doesn’t make for good TV. The toppling of Saddam’s statue was met with cheers and that got a lot of play on the air at the time, but reporters on the scene later said that most of the Iraqis who were there and witnessed it were disturbed by it and weren’t cheering. Further investigation has shown it was a staged media event carried out by the Marines. It wasn’t a spontaneous celebration of Iraqis who suddenly felt free. They weren’t the ones who pulled down the statue.
2. I think your husband is mostly right. Most Iraqis are glad Saddam is gone. Most want the U.S. out right now. But are they glad the U.S. invaded in the first place? That’s hard to say. Many wished they had kicked out Saddam on their own. Many are severly disappointed that life isn’t easier now that the Americans are on the scene. The feelings of many Iraqis are mixed and anti-Americanism is widespread. It varies with degree. Some just grumble that Bush hasn’t set a pull out date. And some are taking up arms. Those who are simply glad that America did what they did are in the minority.
3. Did I disparage any one with different beliefs? Is my viewpoint narrow? Do I seem closed minded? Well, that hasn’t been my intention.
Robert,
As for the celebrations in Baghdad, I’m not telling you what I saw on the news. I’m telling you what my husband and our friends have told me. Last time my husband was in Baghdad, which was a year ago and almost two years after we initially went into Iraq, they were still greeted with shouts and praise on every convoy.
Also, straight from the mouths of my husband and our friends, very few of the terrorists (those you would call insurgents) they encountered were Iraqis. They clearly don’t represent the view of the majority of Iraqis. So their activity in no way supports your claims.
Yes you did disparage people with different beliefs. You called servicemembers a “collection of dupes” for having the audacity to believe in and support a different ideal than your own.
As for narrow and closeminded, that came through pretty loud and clear to me.
BTW Robert,
I got my figure of the number of people saying life was better now from a network news story, not Fox News. I am also more likely to trust a story from someone who is not trying to push an agenda (like Jennifer’s husband) than from someone who lives to sell the story (like the reporters). So many reporters never leave the green zone that they have no idea what really goes on over there. The military is all over, seeing the entire picture.
Also, it is said that 70% of Iraqis voted in the recent election. That tells me that they support the direction that their country is headed. If only 70% of the people in this country do NOT vote in an election, it is considered a good turnout!
After WWII, we did not leave Germany right away to fend for itself, as a matter of fact, we are still there! It’s like leaving a toddler alone in a house; sure the kid might be okay for a while, but there are too many hidden dangers that could cause harm to that child that leaving someone that young home alone is foolish. So it is with Iraq. It is country in the infancy of democracy, slowly learning to walk on its own. But there are a lot of hidden dangers out there - terrorists who would look for any chance they can get to seize power and return the country to a dictatorship - that we cannot leave them alone yet to fend for themselves. That’s also why we can’t say, “We’ll be out by date X.” Because on date X+1 someone (or group of someones) will probably try something to destroy the democracy that is slowly being created. I won’t leave my child at home alone until I feel he or she is ready, and I won’t say that a certain date is the magic date that it will occur, either. I will watch and determine when I feel the child is mature enough to handle the responsibility.
I am not sure I understand who is doing the violence in Iraq today.
I suppose there are different groups with different motivations.
At first, the violence was directed against Americans and these were mostly Saddam loyalists.
But now I understand that terrorists from other countries have entered the country.
And I think Iran is involved and also that some of it is Shiite vs. Sunni conflict.
Who is doing the violence? Where are they coming from? What is their motivation?
Bush calls them all terrorists and says their motivation is that they hate freedom. I’m sorry, but that sounds just plain dumb.
So, if anybody knows of a good article written on this topic, who’s doing the violence and why, I’d certainly like to read it.
Gosh, I’d also like to see a good article on how the word “terrorism” is
The people committing terror in Iraq are those who are confident that their allies in the United States will help them retake control of Iraq.
A couple of points; In both Germany and Japanese islands US soldiers continued suffering casualties until about 1946-47. In Germany, they were called “werewolves” and were quite proud of their continued resistance. I believe that the last Japanes soldier surrendered in the 1970’s. But he wasn’t engaged in resistance activities, only survival.
When I was at Fort Carson, CO, we had the same trouble with civilian treatment of military personnel. So on a mid-month payday, the Commanding General of the post put the entire town off limits. And notified the mayor after he had done so. Many of our grievances were quickly addressed. Repeated complaints to the local Judge Advocate General would get businesses put on the off limits list. And soldiers were legally ordered to do business with that company. It usually settled them down.
Robert,
Check out this post by Mohammed at Iraq the Model
His blog is an interesting read as we don’t get the Iraqi citizen’s perspective in the media here.
Hmmn…didn’t let me put the URL in the last post. I’ll try again.
http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/2005/07/not-bombers-or-insurgents-theyre.html
http://www.militarycity.com/polls/2005_main.php
“Support for President Bush and for the war in Iraq has slipped significantly in the last year among members of the military’s professional core, according to the 2005 Military Times Poll.
Approval of the president’s Iraq policy fell 9 percentage points from 2004; a bare majority, 54 percent, now say they view his performance on Iraq as favorable. Support for his overall performance fell 11 points, to 60 percent, among active-duty readers of the Military Times newspapers. Though support both for President Bush and for the war in Iraq remains significantly higher than in the public as a whole, the drop is likely to add further fuel to the heated debate over Iraq policy. In 2003 and 2004, supporters of the war in Iraq pointed to high approval ratings in the Military Times Poll as a signal that military members were behind President Bush’s the president’s policy.
The poll also found diminished optimism that U.S. goals in Iraq can be accomplished, and a somewhat smaller drop in support for the decision to go to war in 2003.”
CNN has been shown to have not very credible as a news source for Iraq. The former news executive, Eason Dyson, admited before he resigned that CNN had agreed to not report news that could have been seen as negative towards Saddam Hussein:
Eason Jordon Admits Baghdad Bureau Kept Open By Not Reporting Saddam Attrocities:
http://www.poynter.org/dg.lts/id.36/aid.30323/column.htm
Jordon finally resigned after he claimed that reporters were being targeted by US troops:
Eason Jordon Claims US Troops Target Reporters:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/SHOWBIZ/TV/02/11/easonjordan.cnn/
No proof of this claim was ever provided by Mr. Jordon. He subsequently resigned over the furor.
The US Military operates its own information site that provides up-to-date and detailed stories about operations in Iraq:
US Military Information Site:
http://www.defenselink.mil/
As to the “definition of a terrorist”, the US has a large site dedicated to this topic:
UN/Terrorism:
http://www.un.org/terrorism/
The US Starte Department also has a site on the US response to Terrorism:
US State Department/Response To Terrorism:
http://usinfo.state.gov/is/international_security/terrorism.html
(There are a number of documents/resources about terrorism and the US Response on this site.
‘Seeing as what the military has been doing and why, I consider it a dishonor to support it.’
I’m sure the 45 million Afghans and Iraqi’s who don’t live in totalitarian police states at least appreciate that they have the same right to disagree that you have. I’m also sure they have the same level of gratitude for the sacrifices of others in securing that right as you.
Doubleplusgood duckspeak, Jack.