Comments on: Return of grammar http://joannejacobs.com/2006/10/27/return-of-grammar/ Free-linking and thinking on education by Joanne Jacobs Mon, 13 Oct 2008 23:03:40 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Tom West http://joannejacobs.com/2006/10/27/return-of-grammar/#comment-34167 Tom West Sat, 28 Oct 2006 12:05:07 +0000 http://joannejacobsblog.com/2006/10/27/return-of-grammar/#comment-34167 Pencil me as another one under the "not sure it helps" category. I studied grammar in school, (basic stuff, sentence diagramming, etc.) and while I could analyze sentences, I don't ever remember thinking consciously about grammar while writing. I suspect that most students (and adults) communicate without conscious thought given to sentence structure (and often enough, sentence content :-)), and that doesn't necessarily change when you learn grammar. To be honest, I think we're doomed. Those of us who have internalized half-way reasonable grammer get to communicate "for free". For those who have had their communication habits formed in grammar-free environments, we're essentially asking them to speak a foreign language (at least in terms of cognitive effort). The extraordinary effort to form grammatically correct sentences isn't going to come unless there's a significant cost for not doing so. i.e. when there's a social penalty, or at the very least a grade penalty. However, with a grade penalty there's a significant danger that the personal cost of making the mental effort to speak/write correctly is higher than the reward of completing one's education. In other words, I believe a strong drive towards correct grammar in schools would increase the drop-out rate significantly, in the same manner that teaching in a different language would. Pencil me as another one under the “not sure it helps” category. I studied grammar in school, (basic stuff, sentence diagramming, etc.) and while I could analyze sentences, I don’t ever remember thinking consciously about grammar while writing.

I suspect that most students (and adults) communicate without conscious thought given to sentence structure (and often enough, sentence content :-)), and that doesn’t necessarily change when you learn grammar.

To be honest, I think we’re doomed.

Those of us who have internalized half-way reasonable grammer get to communicate “for free”. For those who have had their communication habits formed in grammar-free environments, we’re essentially asking them to speak a foreign language (at least in terms of cognitive effort).

The extraordinary effort to form grammatically correct sentences isn’t going to come unless there’s a significant cost for not doing so. i.e. when there’s a social penalty, or at the very least a grade penalty. However, with a grade penalty there’s a significant danger that the personal cost of making the mental effort to speak/write correctly is higher than the reward of completing one’s education.

In other words, I believe a strong drive towards correct grammar in schools would increase the drop-out rate significantly, in the same manner that teaching in a different language would.

]]> By: SuperSub http://joannejacobs.com/2006/10/27/return-of-grammar/#comment-34166 SuperSub Sat, 28 Oct 2006 09:57:05 +0000 http://joannejacobsblog.com/2006/10/27/return-of-grammar/#comment-34166 Robert - I think it has less to do with improving writing than with maintaining what many consider a reasonable standard of writing. In HS biology we introduce many terms... I usually give them definitions and plenty of examples of use. Yet, I still see the kids using verbs as nouns, nouns as adjectives, and all sorts of misuse of new terms. I'd say that this is due to their lack of istruction in grammar. Just curious, what type of school do you work in, and how does it rank compared to nearby schools of different types? Robert -
I think it has less to do with improving writing than with maintaining what many consider a reasonable standard of writing. In HS biology we introduce many terms… I usually give them definitions and plenty of examples of use. Yet, I still see the kids using verbs as nouns, nouns as adjectives, and all sorts of misuse of new terms. I’d say that this is due to their lack of istruction in grammar.
Just curious, what type of school do you work in, and how does it rank compared to nearby schools of different types?

]]> By: Robert Wright http://joannejacobs.com/2006/10/27/return-of-grammar/#comment-34165 Robert Wright Sat, 28 Oct 2006 03:33:54 +0000 http://joannejacobsblog.com/2006/10/27/return-of-grammar/#comment-34165 I'm not sure that learning grammar helps a student do anything other than learn a foreign language. I teach grammar because I like it (and they pay me) but after thirty years, I have yet to see any evidence that it improves the writing or the reading of native speakers. Useless knowledge might be good exercise for the brain, though. I loved the proof for finding the area of a sphere and I'm probably a better person for having learned it, so I'm not complaining. I’m not sure that learning grammar helps a student do anything other than learn a foreign language.

I teach grammar because I like it (and they pay me) but after thirty years, I have yet to see any evidence that it improves the writing or the reading of native speakers.

Useless knowledge might be good exercise for the brain, though. I loved the proof for finding the area of a sphere and I’m probably a better person for having learned it, so I’m not complaining.

]]> By: Quincy http://joannejacobs.com/2006/10/27/return-of-grammar/#comment-34164 Quincy Sat, 28 Oct 2006 03:14:12 +0000 http://joannejacobsblog.com/2006/10/27/return-of-grammar/#comment-34164 MarkM - I had a teacher who could effectively use sentence diagramming as a tool. When she was teaching us to diagram, she told us that each part of the diagram corresponded to a question. For example, the question "What is going on?" was the main verb in the sentence. Once we answered that, we would ask who was doing it for the subject. Considering this over a decade ago, I can't remember all the questions. Anyway, once we mastered answering the basic questions, she taught us that each one corresponded to a part of speech. Long story short, she didn't use sentence diagrams to teach grammar, she taught us to use them to account for all the bits and pieces of a sentence when we were applying what we'd learned. MarkM -

I had a teacher who could effectively use sentence diagramming as a tool. When she was teaching us to diagram, she told us that each part of the diagram corresponded to a question. For example, the question “What is going on?” was the main verb in the sentence. Once we answered that, we would ask who was doing it for the subject. Considering this over a decade ago, I can’t remember all the questions. Anyway, once we mastered answering the basic questions, she taught us that each one corresponded to a part of speech.

Long story short, she didn’t use sentence diagrams to teach grammar, she taught us to use them to account for all the bits and pieces of a sentence when we were applying what we’d learned.

]]> By: markm http://joannejacobs.com/2006/10/27/return-of-grammar/#comment-34163 markm Fri, 27 Oct 2006 18:40:18 +0000 http://joannejacobsblog.com/2006/10/27/return-of-grammar/#comment-34163 Grammar has to be taught somehow, but I have doubts that sentence diagramming is an effective way of doing it. I recall a sentence-diagramming block when I was in 9th grade. Every kid that had any problem speaking or writing grammatically was totally lost when it came to sentence diagrams, even though this school system had tried to teach diagramming every year since 3rd or 4th grade. The teacher did a good job of explaining diagramming, but he might as well have been lecturing on calculus to someone who couldn't add fractions. Every kid that could get the diagrams right also had perfect grammar (when they wanted to), and this class was just a waste of time for them. Grammar has to be taught somehow, but I have doubts that sentence diagramming is an effective way of doing it. I recall a sentence-diagramming block when I was in 9th grade. Every kid that had any problem speaking or writing grammatically was totally lost when it came to sentence diagrams, even though this school system had tried to teach diagramming every year since 3rd or 4th grade. The teacher did a good job of explaining diagramming, but he might as well have been lecturing on calculus to someone who couldn’t add fractions. Every kid that could get the diagrams right also had perfect grammar (when they wanted to), and this class was just a waste of time for them.

]]> By: Foobarista http://joannejacobs.com/2006/10/27/return-of-grammar/#comment-34162 Foobarista Fri, 27 Oct 2006 17:34:08 +0000 http://joannejacobsblog.com/2006/10/27/return-of-grammar/#comment-34162 It's amazing how many people learn grammar by taking foreign languages. I learned grammar in my high school Spanish class, and had a refresher course in Beijing when I took Chinese! It’s amazing how many people learn grammar by taking foreign languages. I learned grammar in my high school Spanish class, and had a refresher course in Beijing when I took Chinese!

]]> By: Walter E. Wallis http://joannejacobs.com/2006/10/27/return-of-grammar/#comment-34161 Walter E. Wallis Fri, 27 Oct 2006 16:15:57 +0000 http://joannejacobsblog.com/2006/10/27/return-of-grammar/#comment-34161 Do you mean that the Think System died with Meridith Wilson? Do you mean that the Think System died with Meridith Wilson?

]]> By: Alex Bensky http://joannejacobs.com/2006/10/27/return-of-grammar/#comment-34160 Alex Bensky Fri, 27 Oct 2006 12:31:30 +0000 http://joannejacobsblog.com/2006/10/27/return-of-grammar/#comment-34160 Alas, I'm sure they've long passed on to that Great Big Classroom in the Sky, but thanks to Mrs. Marie Sneed and Mrs. Grace Hoffman who in eighth and ninth grade at Norup Junior High School taught me to understand how a sentence works and therefore how to write one. Alas, I’m sure they’ve long passed on to that Great Big Classroom in the Sky, but thanks to Mrs. Marie Sneed and Mrs. Grace Hoffman who in eighth and ninth grade at Norup Junior High School taught me to understand how a sentence works and therefore how to write one.

]]> By: mike from oregon http://joannejacobs.com/2006/10/27/return-of-grammar/#comment-34159 mike from oregon Fri, 27 Oct 2006 11:39:57 +0000 http://joannejacobsblog.com/2006/10/27/return-of-grammar/#comment-34159 Like many other 'things' that we were taught (or was that 'forced to learn' (which is the way they would put it in these PC times) I hated it at the time never realizing how it would help me down the road. For the record - we were taught it in 4th grade, and for the record it was a Catholic school. Like many other ‘things’ that we were taught (or was that ‘forced to learn’ (which is the way they would put it in these PC times) I hated it at the time never realizing how it would help me down the road. For the record - we were taught it in 4th grade, and for the record it was a Catholic school.

]]> By: Wayne Martin http://joannejacobs.com/2006/10/27/return-of-grammar/#comment-34158 Wayne Martin Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:55:22 +0000 http://joannejacobsblog.com/2006/10/27/return-of-grammar/#comment-34158 We were taught grammar in some detail in the 7th (maybe 8th) grade, but it wasn't very popular. Parsing and diagramming sentences wasn't very popular with the students. When I took Latin, starting in the 9th grade, the teacher spent an inordinate amount of time on grammar, and in the process I found myself learning English for (effectively) the first time. > We are still being told by our writing > consultant to not worry about grammar > and spelling. It's astounding how disoriented our schools have become. > Grammar lessons vanished from public schools > in the 1970s, supplanted by a more holistic > view of English instruction. A generation > of teachers and students learned grammar > through the act of writing, not in > isolated drills and diagrams. And presumably we have the Ed Schools to thank for this? We were taught grammar in some detail in the 7th (maybe 8th) grade, but it wasn’t very popular. Parsing and diagramming sentences wasn’t very popular with the students. When I took Latin, starting in the 9th grade, the teacher spent an inordinate amount of time on grammar, and in the process I found myself learning English for (effectively) the first time.

> We are still being told by our writing
> consultant to not worry about grammar
> and spelling.

It’s astounding how disoriented our schools have become.

> Grammar lessons vanished from public schools
> in the 1970s, supplanted by a more holistic
> view of English instruction. A generation
> of teachers and students learned grammar
> through the act of writing, not in
> isolated drills and diagrams.

And presumably we have the Ed Schools to thank for this?

]]>