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	<title>Comments on: Learning starts at home</title>
	<atom:link href="http://joannejacobs.com/2008/03/23/learning-starts-at-home/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2008/03/23/learning-starts-at-home/</link>
	<description>Free-linking and thinking on education by Joanne Jacobs</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2008 17:33:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: hardlyb</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2008/03/23/learning-starts-at-home/#comment-72966</link>
		<dc:creator>hardlyb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Mar 2008 17:33:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2008/03/23/learning-starts-at-home/#comment-72966</guid>
		<description>Cardinal Fang, what email list is that? I'd be interested in learning more about this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cardinal Fang, what email list is that? I&#8217;d be interested in learning more about this.</p>
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		<title>By: Sunniemom</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2008/03/23/learning-starts-at-home/#comment-72930</link>
		<dc:creator>Sunniemom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Mar 2008 20:27:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2008/03/23/learning-starts-at-home/#comment-72930</guid>
		<description>Bottom line is home education self-selects for involved, resourceful parents. There are folks who 'try it out' for a year or so, but those who realize that they aren't cutout for homeschooling send their kids back to public schools or pay for private school. It is great to have choices, isn't it?

So far there is no evidence to contradict that home education is a viable and valuable option for families, only irrational fears and "What if" questions with no basis in reality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bottom line is home education self-selects for involved, resourceful parents. There are folks who &#8216;try it out&#8217; for a year or so, but those who realize that they aren&#8217;t cutout for homeschooling send their kids back to public schools or pay for private school. It is great to have choices, isn&#8217;t it?</p>
<p>So far there is no evidence to contradict that home education is a viable and valuable option for families, only irrational fears and &#8220;What if&#8221; questions with no basis in reality.</p>
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		<title>By: superdestroyer</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2008/03/23/learning-starts-at-home/#comment-72925</link>
		<dc:creator>superdestroyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Mar 2008 19:14:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2008/03/23/learning-starts-at-home/#comment-72925</guid>
		<description>Supersub, 

The reasons parents are supporting their adult children has little to do with educational achievement in college and much more to do with the the difference in pay between entry level jobs and large metropolitan areas.   It also has to do with the need for graduate school/professional school jobs and with extended low paying internships. 

However, the difference between a college educate parent working and paying for their kids private prep school versus a parent staying home and home schooling, the economic benefit for both the parent and child would be from the private school (higher average SAT score, better college, influence of being around many other driven students. 

When home schoolers are comparing themselves to minorities in inner city public schools, they are sitting the bar too low.  A stay a home teachers versus $50K a year job is an elite private school price to pay.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Supersub, </p>
<p>The reasons parents are supporting their adult children has little to do with educational achievement in college and much more to do with the the difference in pay between entry level jobs and large metropolitan areas.   It also has to do with the need for graduate school/professional school jobs and with extended low paying internships. </p>
<p>However, the difference between a college educate parent working and paying for their kids private prep school versus a parent staying home and home schooling, the economic benefit for both the parent and child would be from the private school (higher average SAT score, better college, influence of being around many other driven students. </p>
<p>When home schoolers are comparing themselves to minorities in inner city public schools, they are sitting the bar too low.  A stay a home teachers versus $50K a year job is an elite private school price to pay.</p>
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		<title>By: SuperSub</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2008/03/23/learning-starts-at-home/#comment-72921</link>
		<dc:creator>SuperSub</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Mar 2008 17:26:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2008/03/23/learning-starts-at-home/#comment-72921</guid>
		<description>Superdestroyer - regarding your discussion of the "costs" of homeschooling... in many situations the costs you accurately described are offset by the benefits of providing a solid education for children. Quality education is the doorway to college education and the workforce beyond. 
There are presently many stories of parents who are supporting adult children because of poor job markets or simply because the child had a poor education and has no skills. Parents may also be insulating their children against the corrupting influence of urban pop culture, which places no importance on education or a hard work ethic.
There is also a trend of adult children taking care of their parents. Even the most financially-secure couple can have their savings wiped out by the illnesses that accompany old age.

Plain and simple, by "investing" in their child's education, homeschoolers are improving the odds that their children will be self-sufficient and maybe even able to help support the parents when they're older.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Superdestroyer - regarding your discussion of the &#8220;costs&#8221; of homeschooling&#8230; in many situations the costs you accurately described are offset by the benefits of providing a solid education for children. Quality education is the doorway to college education and the workforce beyond.<br />
There are presently many stories of parents who are supporting adult children because of poor job markets or simply because the child had a poor education and has no skills. Parents may also be insulating their children against the corrupting influence of urban pop culture, which places no importance on education or a hard work ethic.<br />
There is also a trend of adult children taking care of their parents. Even the most financially-secure couple can have their savings wiped out by the illnesses that accompany old age.</p>
<p>Plain and simple, by &#8220;investing&#8221; in their child&#8217;s education, homeschoolers are improving the odds that their children will be self-sufficient and maybe even able to help support the parents when they&#8217;re older.</p>
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		<title>By: superdestroyer</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2008/03/23/learning-starts-at-home/#comment-72914</link>
		<dc:creator>superdestroyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Mar 2008 15:50:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2008/03/23/learning-starts-at-home/#comment-72914</guid>
		<description>Even if a college educated parent says it is not about the money, the long run is still about the money.  That stay at home parent is not adding to a 401K, is not paying for health insurance, and it not saving for the children's college education.  Even though there are government mandates that offset some of the opportunity costs, they do not make up for all of them. 

If homeschooling is going to sold as a great alternative instead of just another alternative, then all of the costs should be included.  That home teachers could be lowering their standard of living in their old age, making themselves more vulnerable to divorce or illness, and saving less in order to educated their children.  Where is the risk management is that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Even if a college educated parent says it is not about the money, the long run is still about the money.  That stay at home parent is not adding to a 401K, is not paying for health insurance, and it not saving for the children&#8217;s college education.  Even though there are government mandates that offset some of the opportunity costs, they do not make up for all of them. </p>
<p>If homeschooling is going to sold as a great alternative instead of just another alternative, then all of the costs should be included.  That home teachers could be lowering their standard of living in their old age, making themselves more vulnerable to divorce or illness, and saving less in order to educated their children.  Where is the risk management is that?</p>
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		<title>By: Dawn</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2008/03/23/learning-starts-at-home/#comment-72882</link>
		<dc:creator>Dawn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Mar 2008 00:30:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2008/03/23/learning-starts-at-home/#comment-72882</guid>
		<description>"So, for one adult giving up a paying job which could be used to fund private schools"

"...produces the same results as the home-schoolers without the opportunity costs of a college educated parent giving up a career..."

What's with the weird obsession over one parent not having a career? Maybe for those homeschooling parents who leave a career to come home it's *gasp* not about the money!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;So, for one adult giving up a paying job which could be used to fund private schools&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;produces the same results as the home-schoolers without the opportunity costs of a college educated parent giving up a career&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>What&#8217;s with the weird obsession over one parent not having a career? Maybe for those homeschooling parents who leave a career to come home it&#8217;s *gasp* not about the money!</p>
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		<title>By: Vital Core</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2008/03/23/learning-starts-at-home/#comment-72877</link>
		<dc:creator>Vital Core</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Mar 2008 19:26:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2008/03/23/learning-starts-at-home/#comment-72877</guid>
		<description>I'm always sort of amused at the university-accept-homeschooler discussions. Reality:

1) Universities are fighting each other over brains. There is a global hunt for the very best students, and schools are begging and paying them to come. They couldn't care less if they were green and taught by monsters. They need talent, and America is short of it these days. Homeschoolers aren't begging the schools, it's the other way around.

2) Due to grade inflation, only fools care about GPA anymore. Sure they claim to, but not really. How can you use GPA when you are looking at an international pool of applicants? One of the smartest guys I met in engineering was a guy from China who was homeschooled his entire life who had little "activities" on his application. How do you compare him? The school who got him got lucky.

3) For homeschoolers, the university game is SAT, SAT, and SAT. Any school who dares to take a 4.0 high school student with an average SAT score over a high SAT scoring homeschooler who can write well will soon be &lt;i&gt;out of business.&lt;/i&gt; Cal Tech remains Cal Tech only because they get the best brains.

4) The best line in the article was &lt;i&gt;Conventional schools are like the nation's Rust Belt companies, designed in the 19th century but struggling to meet the standards of international competition today.&lt;/i&gt; Homeschooling is, to my mind, nothing special, just merely a response to the failure of institutional schools to get with the times.

But we shouldn't be surprised at this denial. It's natural. Just as the Big Three auto companies fought for government protection and had to nearly go broke before they finally outsourced, broke the unions, and completely changed to match the real world, the monopoly of public school will not go gently into the night, either. But go they eventually will.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m always sort of amused at the university-accept-homeschooler discussions. Reality:</p>
<p>1) Universities are fighting each other over brains. There is a global hunt for the very best students, and schools are begging and paying them to come. They couldn&#8217;t care less if they were green and taught by monsters. They need talent, and America is short of it these days. Homeschoolers aren&#8217;t begging the schools, it&#8217;s the other way around.</p>
<p>2) Due to grade inflation, only fools care about GPA anymore. Sure they claim to, but not really. How can you use GPA when you are looking at an international pool of applicants? One of the smartest guys I met in engineering was a guy from China who was homeschooled his entire life who had little &#8220;activities&#8221; on his application. How do you compare him? The school who got him got lucky.</p>
<p>3) For homeschoolers, the university game is SAT, SAT, and SAT. Any school who dares to take a 4.0 high school student with an average SAT score over a high SAT scoring homeschooler who can write well will soon be <i>out of business.</i> Cal Tech remains Cal Tech only because they get the best brains.</p>
<p>4) The best line in the article was <i>Conventional schools are like the nation&#8217;s Rust Belt companies, designed in the 19th century but struggling to meet the standards of international competition today.</i> Homeschooling is, to my mind, nothing special, just merely a response to the failure of institutional schools to get with the times.</p>
<p>But we shouldn&#8217;t be surprised at this denial. It&#8217;s natural. Just as the Big Three auto companies fought for government protection and had to nearly go broke before they finally outsourced, broke the unions, and completely changed to match the real world, the monopoly of public school will not go gently into the night, either. But go they eventually will.</p>
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		<title>By: Cardinal Fang</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2008/03/23/learning-starts-at-home/#comment-72875</link>
		<dc:creator>Cardinal Fang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Mar 2008 18:15:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2008/03/23/learning-starts-at-home/#comment-72875</guid>
		<description>For the purposes of this argument, it doesn't matter whether homeschoolers outperform the schooled population by a lot or by a little. The context of this article is the California decision about homeschooling. The question is, are homeschoolers getting an adequate education? As far as the SATs are concerned, the answer is, yes, homeschoolers are doing just fine.

Hardlyb, don't worry. Your daughter will be fine. Top colleges love top homeschoolers. This year on my email list we've got, so far, a Yale acceptance, two MIT, two Caltech, one Harvard and two University of Chicago. Stanford decisions aren't out yet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For the purposes of this argument, it doesn&#8217;t matter whether homeschoolers outperform the schooled population by a lot or by a little. The context of this article is the California decision about homeschooling. The question is, are homeschoolers getting an adequate education? As far as the SATs are concerned, the answer is, yes, homeschoolers are doing just fine.</p>
<p>Hardlyb, don&#8217;t worry. Your daughter will be fine. Top colleges love top homeschoolers. This year on my email list we&#8217;ve got, so far, a Yale acceptance, two MIT, two Caltech, one Harvard and two University of Chicago. Stanford decisions aren&#8217;t out yet.</p>
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		<title>By: superdestroyer</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2008/03/23/learning-starts-at-home/#comment-72873</link>
		<dc:creator>superdestroyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Mar 2008 17:20:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2008/03/23/learning-starts-at-home/#comment-72873</guid>
		<description>Another comparison based upon test scores  and this time, for the same year. 

From http://homeschooling.gomilpitas.com/olderkids/CollegeTests.htm

For the 2007 Act tests, there were about 10,000 home-schoolers who took the test had an average score of 22.3.  

From http://www.act.org/news/data/07/pdf/one.pdf 

For all white students the average score is 22.1 and for Asian students the average score is 22.6. 

If I had to guess, whatever the Asian-American community is doing, even though they are at the bottom of the home schooling movement, produces the same results as the home-schoolers without the opportunity costs of  a college educated parent giving up a career and with probably fewer books in the home than a home schooling family. 

Considering that home schooling families are whiter than the general student population, they should be outperforming all whites by a large margin instead of producing statistically the same scores.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another comparison based upon test scores  and this time, for the same year. </p>
<p>From <a href="http://homeschooling.gomilpitas.com/olderkids/CollegeTests.htm" rel="nofollow">http://homeschooling.gomilpitas.com/olderkids/CollegeTests.htm</a></p>
<p>For the 2007 Act tests, there were about 10,000 home-schoolers who took the test had an average score of 22.3.  </p>
<p>From <a href="http://www.act.org/news/data/07/pdf/one.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.act.org/news/data/07/pdf/one.pdf</a> </p>
<p>For all white students the average score is 22.1 and for Asian students the average score is 22.6. </p>
<p>If I had to guess, whatever the Asian-American community is doing, even though they are at the bottom of the home schooling movement, produces the same results as the home-schoolers without the opportunity costs of  a college educated parent giving up a career and with probably fewer books in the home than a home schooling family. </p>
<p>Considering that home schooling families are whiter than the general student population, they should be outperforming all whites by a large margin instead of producing statistically the same scores.</p>
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		<title>By: Reality Czech</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2008/03/23/learning-starts-at-home/#comment-72871</link>
		<dc:creator>Reality Czech</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Mar 2008 17:03:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2008/03/23/learning-starts-at-home/#comment-72871</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Why would &lt;i&gt;all whites who chose to take the SAT&lt;/i&gt; be such a low bar to aim for?&lt;/blockquote&gt;When you're comparing against all home-schoolers &lt;i&gt;who chose to take the SAT&lt;/i&gt;, it's less than awe-inspiring.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Why would <i>all whites who chose to take the SAT</i> be such a low bar to aim for?</p></blockquote>
<p>When you&#8217;re comparing against all home-schoolers <i>who chose to take the SAT</i>, it&#8217;s less than awe-inspiring.</p>
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