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	<title>Comments on: College for the unprepared</title>
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	<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2008/07/15/college-for-the-unprepared/</link>
	<description>Free-linking and thinking on education by Joanne Jacobs</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 14:24:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: maybe</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2008/07/15/college-for-the-unprepared/comment-page-1/#comment-80084</link>
		<dc:creator>maybe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 20:08:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=5663#comment-80084</guid>
		<description>At my (state) university I had a student who wanted, after university, to attend post-graduate school in a highly competitive field which requires math and physics to be taken at university. The guidance counselor had specifically said 'you have enough math already for that', so on the advice of this guidance counselor, this student stopped after Algebra II and didn't take Precalc senior year.

Guidance counselors quite often either have no idea or don't care what's actually necessary. Often again, they are overworked and don't have enough time to advise students. There's a gigantic difference between a student who was misadvised and so lacking a fine arts credit or a foreign language credit, or told by a counselor not to bother with SAT IIs, and a student who simply lacks the intellectual capacity/work ethic to attend university.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At my (state) university I had a student who wanted, after university, to attend post-graduate school in a highly competitive field which requires math and physics to be taken at university. The guidance counselor had specifically said &#8216;you have enough math already for that&#8217;, so on the advice of this guidance counselor, this student stopped after Algebra II and didn&#8217;t take Precalc senior year.</p>
<p>Guidance counselors quite often either have no idea or don&#8217;t care what&#8217;s actually necessary. Often again, they are overworked and don&#8217;t have enough time to advise students. There&#8217;s a gigantic difference between a student who was misadvised and so lacking a fine arts credit or a foreign language credit, or told by a counselor not to bother with SAT IIs, and a student who simply lacks the intellectual capacity/work ethic to attend university.</p>
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		<title>By: Cal</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2008/07/15/college-for-the-unprepared/comment-page-1/#comment-80078</link>
		<dc:creator>Cal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 17:54:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=5663#comment-80078</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I read this as an admission (pardon the pun) by UC that there is a sub-set of (potentially highly-abled) students that donâ€™t *technically* meet requirements, but, with a minimum of â€œhand-holdingâ€ can flourish within a quality higher-education setting.&lt;/i&gt;

There are no such kids. Seriously. Any kid who has genuine ability and doesn't need handholding is able to get at least a 550 on each section of the SAT and will be capable of getting at minimum 500 on the SAT Lit and Math 2c Subject tests--even if they sat in school every year and did nothing.

If they can't make those scores, then they would need extensive handholding. 

But like I said--the UCs can fill their quotas of low income underperforming kids who aren't capable of doing college work from their existing standards. This is all about the pretense that they are expanding their efforts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I read this as an admission (pardon the pun) by UC that there is a sub-set of (potentially highly-abled) students that donâ€™t *technically* meet requirements, but, with a minimum of â€œhand-holdingâ€ can flourish within a quality higher-education setting.</i></p>
<p>There are no such kids. Seriously. Any kid who has genuine ability and doesn&#8217;t need handholding is able to get at least a 550 on each section of the SAT and will be capable of getting at minimum 500 on the SAT Lit and Math 2c Subject tests&#8211;even if they sat in school every year and did nothing.</p>
<p>If they can&#8217;t make those scores, then they would need extensive handholding. </p>
<p>But like I said&#8211;the UCs can fill their quotas of low income underperforming kids who aren&#8217;t capable of doing college work from their existing standards. This is all about the pretense that they are expanding their efforts.</p>
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		<title>By: cj</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2008/07/15/college-for-the-unprepared/comment-page-1/#comment-80055</link>
		<dc:creator>cj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 05:08:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=5663#comment-80055</guid>
		<description>I read this as an admission (pardon the pun) by UC that there is a sub-set of (potentially highly-abled) students that don't *technically* meet requirements, but, with a minimum of "hand-holding" can flourish within a quality higher-education setting. Thus, they are taking into account that the past educational environment of said students has been less than stellar, but that they could cull the top percentage of such students, and provide a better opportunity for all -- the students themselves, the campus and society as a whole.

I see this as a win-win situation. 

Give "highly-marginal" students a chance, at a very low cost to society.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read this as an admission (pardon the pun) by UC that there is a sub-set of (potentially highly-abled) students that don&#8217;t *technically* meet requirements, but, with a minimum of &#8220;hand-holding&#8221; can flourish within a quality higher-education setting. Thus, they are taking into account that the past educational environment of said students has been less than stellar, but that they could cull the top percentage of such students, and provide a better opportunity for all &#8212; the students themselves, the campus and society as a whole.</p>
<p>I see this as a win-win situation. </p>
<p>Give &#8220;highly-marginal&#8221; students a chance, at a very low cost to society.</p>
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		<title>By: Catch Thirty-Three</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2008/07/15/college-for-the-unprepared/comment-page-1/#comment-80012</link>
		<dc:creator>Catch Thirty-Three</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 08:38:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=5663#comment-80012</guid>
		<description>All this chatter about guidance counselors I have read in the comments here remind me of my own experience.  Guidance counselors in high school, at least the ones I dealt with, were out to discourage me from attending college, in my opinion.  I finally extracted some testing information (how to file for taking the SAT and here in TX, the TASP which was needed for TX public universities)from one which was like pulling teeth.  The most helpful voice I had in high school in regards to attending college was a history teacher who pointed me in the right direction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All this chatter about guidance counselors I have read in the comments here remind me of my own experience.  Guidance counselors in high school, at least the ones I dealt with, were out to discourage me from attending college, in my opinion.  I finally extracted some testing information (how to file for taking the SAT and here in TX, the TASP which was needed for TX public universities)from one which was like pulling teeth.  The most helpful voice I had in high school in regards to attending college was a history teacher who pointed me in the right direction.</p>
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		<title>By: Tracy W</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2008/07/15/college-for-the-unprepared/comment-page-1/#comment-80010</link>
		<dc:creator>Tracy W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 07:41:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=5663#comment-80010</guid>
		<description>In NZ at my first year of uni I knew a girl who had wanted to do engineering, but couldn't, as her guidance counsellor had told her that maths with statistics was a pre-req but not maths with calculus. That was of course totally the wrong way around.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In NZ at my first year of uni I knew a girl who had wanted to do engineering, but couldn&#8217;t, as her guidance counsellor had told her that maths with statistics was a pre-req but not maths with calculus. That was of course totally the wrong way around.</p>
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		<title>By: Cal</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2008/07/15/college-for-the-unprepared/comment-page-1/#comment-80006</link>
		<dc:creator>Cal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 05:09:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=5663#comment-80006</guid>
		<description>I'd worry more about this if it weren't for the fact that this is all window dressing. Unless UCB is planning on becoming dramatically less competitive, this is all crap. UCs will still have to accept more qualified students first, which means that Riverside will just be more of a s***hole than it is now, but nothing much else. 

It's all crap. If they ever seriously started accepting kids with an average of 400 SATs and no subject tests over kids with 650 average SATs and subjects, one of two things would occur: a lawsuit or a complete removal of taxpayer support for UCs.

They want to make themselves feel better by having a policy that allows them to pretend to accept more incompetents than they already are.  There are tons of incompetent URMs with the requisite a-g classes, top 4%, and SAT subject tests in the low 300s--far more than the UCs could ever accomodate. It's all window dressing.

That said, I'm glad my kid will be graduating before 2012, just in case they do manage to destroy the system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d worry more about this if it weren&#8217;t for the fact that this is all window dressing. Unless UCB is planning on becoming dramatically less competitive, this is all crap. UCs will still have to accept more qualified students first, which means that Riverside will just be more of a s***hole than it is now, but nothing much else. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s all crap. If they ever seriously started accepting kids with an average of 400 SATs and no subject tests over kids with 650 average SATs and subjects, one of two things would occur: a lawsuit or a complete removal of taxpayer support for UCs.</p>
<p>They want to make themselves feel better by having a policy that allows them to pretend to accept more incompetents than they already are.  There are tons of incompetent URMs with the requisite a-g classes, top 4%, and SAT subject tests in the low 300s&#8211;far more than the UCs could ever accomodate. It&#8217;s all window dressing.</p>
<p>That said, I&#8217;m glad my kid will be graduating before 2012, just in case they do manage to destroy the system.</p>
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		<title>By: NDC</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2008/07/15/college-for-the-unprepared/comment-page-1/#comment-80002</link>
		<dc:creator>NDC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 04:20:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=5663#comment-80002</guid>
		<description>I had two outstanding African-American students in my class over the last couple of years who were interested in UC schools who decided not to apply because they lacked a required credit in Fine Arts, I'm pretty sure it was. (They complete a pretty standard College Prep/AP curriculum, had great test scores, and had no trouble with admission at other elite colleges.)

Perhaps this is the kind of lack of required courses that the UC schools are going to be willing to consider, rather than a lack of actual academic core. 

Maybe the drop in percentage of automatic acceptances is related to a desire to take more out of state kids who were ineligible for consideration but who may inflate both the average test scores and the minority enrollment numbers?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had two outstanding African-American students in my class over the last couple of years who were interested in UC schools who decided not to apply because they lacked a required credit in Fine Arts, I&#8217;m pretty sure it was. (They complete a pretty standard College Prep/AP curriculum, had great test scores, and had no trouble with admission at other elite colleges.)</p>
<p>Perhaps this is the kind of lack of required courses that the UC schools are going to be willing to consider, rather than a lack of actual academic core. </p>
<p>Maybe the drop in percentage of automatic acceptances is related to a desire to take more out of state kids who were ineligible for consideration but who may inflate both the average test scores and the minority enrollment numbers?</p>
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		<title>By: Andromeda</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2008/07/15/college-for-the-unprepared/comment-page-1/#comment-79994</link>
		<dc:creator>Andromeda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 01:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=5663#comment-79994</guid>
		<description>&lt;I&gt;Iâ€™d also like to see a list of high schools so dysfunctional that students with high grades and high scores arenâ€™t told to take the A-G courses...&lt;/I&gt;

That doesn't seem all that dysfunctional to me.

I mean, it &lt;I&gt;does&lt;/I&gt; seem completely and unacceptably dysfunctional compared to any rational standard of how high schools ought to work.  But it doesn't seem unusually dysfunctional compared to what I would expect schools are actually doing.  My reference point here is the high school I went to -- a Blue Ribbon school, arguably the best high school in my state (not CA), with a fair number of high-achieving students.  We had 4 guidance counselors for 1300 students, so they pretty much didn't talk to you, period.  (I talked to mine before my senior year only because I made an effort to do so.)  3 of them were well known to be useless if you wanted to go to college out-of-state; they just didn't know anything about the options, and if you were going to college out-of-state obviously you were so smart you could figure it out on your own, plus which you intimidated them.  (My guidance counselor was the other one.  She *wasn't*, technically, but I assigned her to myself when going out of my way to talk to her.  And even she couldn't give me a whole lot of help; I did figure it out on my own, but the list of things I didn't know flabbergasts me now.  (There are books that describe hundreds of colleges?  You can study for standardized tests?  And, of course, this was before everyone had a web page, so no help there.))

There were astonishing guidance resources in the small prep school where I taught, and I'm sure the affluent public schools in the area have such things too, but I don't expect much out of guidance departments outside of wealthy areas.  Unfortunately.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Iâ€™d also like to see a list of high schools so dysfunctional that students with high grades and high scores arenâ€™t told to take the A-G courses&#8230;</i></p>
<p>That doesn&#8217;t seem all that dysfunctional to me.</p>
<p>I mean, it <i>does</i> seem completely and unacceptably dysfunctional compared to any rational standard of how high schools ought to work.  But it doesn&#8217;t seem unusually dysfunctional compared to what I would expect schools are actually doing.  My reference point here is the high school I went to &#8212; a Blue Ribbon school, arguably the best high school in my state (not CA), with a fair number of high-achieving students.  We had 4 guidance counselors for 1300 students, so they pretty much didn&#8217;t talk to you, period.  (I talked to mine before my senior year only because I made an effort to do so.)  3 of them were well known to be useless if you wanted to go to college out-of-state; they just didn&#8217;t know anything about the options, and if you were going to college out-of-state obviously you were so smart you could figure it out on your own, plus which you intimidated them.  (My guidance counselor was the other one.  She *wasn&#8217;t*, technically, but I assigned her to myself when going out of my way to talk to her.  And even she couldn&#8217;t give me a whole lot of help; I did figure it out on my own, but the list of things I didn&#8217;t know flabbergasts me now.  (There are books that describe hundreds of colleges?  You can study for standardized tests?  And, of course, this was before everyone had a web page, so no help there.))</p>
<p>There were astonishing guidance resources in the small prep school where I taught, and I&#8217;m sure the affluent public schools in the area have such things too, but I don&#8217;t expect much out of guidance departments outside of wealthy areas.  Unfortunately.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew H.</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2008/07/15/college-for-the-unprepared/comment-page-1/#comment-79991</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 01:09:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=5663#comment-79991</guid>
		<description>You would think that the UC system was starving for applicants with the way that some of these proposals are written.  I would think that the schools are already selective enough and that they already turn away plenty of qualified applicants.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You would think that the UC system was starving for applicants with the way that some of these proposals are written.  I would think that the schools are already selective enough and that they already turn away plenty of qualified applicants.</p>
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		<title>By: ucladavid</title>
		<link>http://joannejacobs.com/2008/07/15/college-for-the-unprepared/comment-page-1/#comment-79990</link>
		<dc:creator>ucladavid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 00:51:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=5663#comment-79990</guid>
		<description>There is also the cal state system, which my sister is currently going to. For many students, it is just as good or even better than a UC. It is also where I got my teaching credential.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is also the cal state system, which my sister is currently going to. For many students, it is just as good or even better than a UC. It is also where I got my teaching credential.</p>
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